Anchovies and the Animal Rights Conundrum

Animal rights is a complicated issue.

Like many people, I care deeply about the well-being of all sorts of animals. I’ll slow down for groundhogs, prod turtles away from the road, capture stray cats, lasso loose dogs and return them to their owners. You’ll see crows in my yard during the winter flying off with chunks of stale bread from the kitchen.

I once called animal control in the Town of Colonie about a squirrel who was acting squirrelly under my car. The officer caught him and told me he’d release the little bugger in the wild somewhere. I think he was lying to me, the same way you would to a child about a sick pet who was taken to the vet and never came home.

There is an animal graveyard of sorts under the bushes in the yard. It’s the place I put dead critters found in the road near my house, a spot where they can rest peacefully and return to the earth in a proper manner.

But I’m conflicted. Why? Because even with all my caring attention to animals I will still eat them. I admit to you this terrible failing. It’s a weakness.  And in terms of the manufacture of meat in America, I am part of the problem.

And that brings us to the anchovies.

I read Patrick Battuello’s blog post the other day about whether fish have feelings. Mr. Battuello is a vegan and animal rights advocate — and as he’s stated in his blog, he owns a pizzeria.

So after I read about fish and feelings, I asked in a comment, “And what of the humble anchovy?” I also suggested that by using animal products in his cooking, he is supporting a practice he condemns on his blog. By supporting, I mean paying cash money to the wholesalers of cheese and meat who in turn support big farming.

He didn’t publish the comment.

Look, I don’t care if there’s a disconnect between what Mr. Battuello says and he does — it’s really none of my business. I admire his role as a small businessman and he deserves credit for opening our eyes to the horrible way we sometimes exploit animals.

But if you are putting anchovies on pizza with one hand and typing about the feelings of fish with the other, how are you not a hypocrite?


194 responses to “Anchovies and the Animal Rights Conundrum

  1. While not an animal “rights” guy, I don’t eat anchovies..they are fish with mustaches. Plus I think anyone who kills the poor defensless anchovies should be haunted in dreams by screaming little hairy fish…”can you hear them Clarice? The anchovies?”
    On the other hand I eat all kinds of meat, waer leather and occasionally shoot a pesty squarrel…..but you must draw the line somewhere….SAVE THE ANCHOVIES.

  2. That Silence of the Lambs reference will stick in my mind forever.

  3. While I’m always one to try to separate the principle being espoused from the personality, I think it’s appropriate to address this issue since he’s gone on the attack against other people because they engage in practices that conflict with his beliefs and ideologies.

    How can you hold people to an almost impossibly rigid standard of ethics that you yourself are not willing to adhere to? And not only that, but actually stand to gain from that violation of your own personal code personally, financially and otherwise?

  4. Rob, you are not the first, nor will you be the last, to question these “inconsistencies”. It reminds me of a parent saying “do as I say, not as I do.”

  5. Kevin: It’s rather like condemning the way Ringling treats animals and then paying them money for circus tickets.

  6. I notice that you published Mr. Batuello’s comment criticizing you during the circus debate. This is why I can’t take anything Mr. Batuello posts seriously, any more than I accept his rationalization for serving meat and cheese products in his pizzeria.

    He reminds me of a vegan I once met who wore leather. Her reasoning? “Well, when they make a product that’s as good as leather, I will wear it.” O–Kay then.

  7. Ditto to what Kimberly said above. I also share your personal conflict. I have been on and off vegetarian for years. My problem is that I like the taste of meat – I know there are other sources of protein, etc. but grilled chicken is grilled chicken, and it tastes good. And when I wasn’t eating it, I really missed it. And when I do eat it, I feel guilty – especially when I’m at Teri’s farm admiring her chickens. So we all have rationalizations that we make, conflicts between our values and our actions. I guess the difference is that we admit them, work on them, accept them as part of our personal journey – and try not to judge others who are at a different place in their journey.

  8. I love having chickens. I love eating chicken I don’t eat my pet chickens, just the fox does. Not sure if that makes me a hyprocrite, I don’t think so. At least I don’t tell people not to eat chickens and then cook mine and serve them. I love you too, Rob, for writing this. And of course he wouldn’t print your comment…I could have told you that. When I saw his bio in the paper today I was standing at a distance (husband was reading the paper)….from where I was, I thought he was dressed up in a bumble-bee costume…then I was bummed it was just a striped shirt…oh, and I didn’t have my glasses on.
    Oh dear, stop meeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee.

  9. (1) I think it’s lame to edit comments unless they’re nasty toward someone other than the blogger (like another commenter). So if he intentionally deleted yours, that sucks.

    (2) I think people can have good reasons for working in businesses they do not wholly agree with. But if the subject is broached, they also should acknowledge and explain their inconsistencies if they want their stance to be respected.

    (3) If you really do feel a disconnect between caring about and eating animals, you have a few options other than vegetarianism. You could choose to only eat animals that are raised humanely. Meat from humane farmers is available at Honest Weight and at farmer’s markets, and hunting/ fishing your own or obtaining meat from a hunter can also be ethical. You could also choose to eat less meat- only eating it for dinner and on weekends, for example.

  10. Sarah, great points in (3) – if we are all a little more thoughtful, we can make a difference in the demand and hopefully reduce the amount produced by factory farms.

  11. Lissa, that conflict (and occasional disconnect) between values and actions is a function of the flawed human condition. Mr. Batuello at some point decided he was divine, and suffered from no such defects, which allows him to opine from the Olympian position the authorities at the Times-Union have bestowed upon him. Of course he never publishes the commentary of mere mortals; they might dare to disagree with his pronouncements.

    Me, I like chicken. I love Brooks’ chicken, and often refer to their home base in Oneonta as “The Mother Lode”, although in truth my preference is for a locally-raised free-range organically-fed bird grilled in my own back yard. However, I wouldn’t eat one of Teri’s chickens (although I did hold an egg from the Golden Seabright in the upper barn in my hand one day and wonder if it would make a nice egg-and-cheese sandwich), and I myself would have done in the fox in the chicken barn.

    Actually, Mr. Batuello’s ability to annoy is an unfortunate byproduct (rather like the sludge from a sewage treatment plant) of our cultural fondness for the immediacy of on-line communication. There are lots of folks who don’t think Mr. Batuello should have a Times-Union blog page, but as long as his drivel gets clicked on, he’ll continue in possession of his bully pulpit.

    Ah, wee. Think I’ll run over to Little Anthony’s now for a pizza- double cheese, extra anchovies.

  12. Mostly likely, I should say that I don’t care what diet you subscribe to. As for me, I’m like Smokey and Yogi, an omnivore.

    People think I’m kidding when I ask them if they feel guilty eating veggies. Veggies are/were living things, and life exits them, the same as animals, when they are harvested to enter our food chain.

    Veggies aren’t alive!? Than why do we have to feed (fertilize the soil) and water them, so that they will grow and flourish.

    Don’t worry about the anchovies. If they don’t end up on our pizza, they’ll end up in some larger sea creatures belly, fertilizer, omega oil, or large farm animal feed, maybe even in your pet’s food. They’re plenty of uses for them, whereas the critters in pepperoni, sausage, bacon or ham toppings, would end up in our bellies in a more direct form.

    Maybe I could have a stuffed pork chop for dinner. stuffed with plain pizza…just to be on the safe side.

  13. Donald – I love your comment! I’m absolutely NOT an animal rights activist although, I do love and respect all animals and routinely practice wildlife management when I’m hunting, fishing, and trapping.
    I used to make it a point to check out PB’s (AKA – The Pizza Hypocrite) blog, just to read what the opposition was spewing about. I stopped clicking on it about two months ago and have vowed to never go there again . I’m hoping it might make a difference and Mike Huber will remove him from the blogosphere at some point.

  14. Did you miss the first round with P.B., Rob? I actually never read his blog, just stopped it a couple times when I was alerted that I was mentioned (I have animals, you know…). Sad thing, he refused to post my comment defending myself, and many others including T.U. bloggers. Apparently, the rules that we all respect and follow regarding posting comments even IF we don’t agree with them (and I have done my fair share of allowing his followers comments through on my blogs), don’t apply to him.
    He’s got cooties, so I just stay away.

  15. Teri: I remember the kerfuffle over Mr. Battuello’s casual relationship with comments.

    Perhaps he just missed my comment or accidentally deleted it. These things happen. However, if he is just weeding out legitimate comments that he doesn’t like, that’s not right.

    Freddie: I wouldn’t exactly say I’m worried about the anchovies. What worries me is when someone preaches to me about the ethical treatment of animals while serving them up on a plate. By the way, there’s a famous Roald Dahl story titled, The Sound Machine that you should read.

    Sarah: Good points, thank you.

    Donald: Enjoy your pizza; it’s very good there!

    Lissa: Thank you for the honesty.

    Roz: I give the guy credit for taking an unpopular position — but in my mind there is an ethical problem with making money on something you find morally repugnant. And I think he disliked the comments on my circus post more than the post itself.

    Jerry: He does provoke some conversation, doesn’t he?

  16. Anchovies and cootie boy aside….I’m happy because you used the words “conundrum” and “kerfuffle” in this blog. Made my day! I’m a simple sort..easy to please.

  17. BY THE WAY: Here’s an excerpt from the TU Blogger Profile piece Teri mentioned, in which Mr. Battuello responds to a question about the worst part of blogging:

    Dealing with the occasional hater who is seemingly intent on tearing down (both the message and the messenger) without giving thoughtful consideration.

    Disagree with someone today and you’re “a hater.”

  18. Of course there is a problem, Rob. It makes him a hypocrite, no matter how much he rationalizes it. The fact that he wouldn’t post your comment tells me that it must have been a very good one and one that was full of terrifying, rationalization-threatening LOGIC.

    What was the exact comment, anyway?

  19. Roz, this is not verbatim, but the comment went something like this:

    “And what of the humble anchovy? I’m sure you get tired of explaining to people how you compartmentalize your veganism and your business interests, but as long as you pay producers to provide you with meat and cheese, you are part of the problem.”

    Yes, it’s sharp, but not out of line.

  20. Michael Huber,

    I jump into this discussion with serious anxiety, mainly because Rob Madeo makes me tremble with fear.

    It’s inaccurate to say Pat hasn’t addressed the issue. He wrote about it back in March:
    And his ‘day job’ was also listed in today’s Times Union, where we featured him as our weekly ‘blogger bio.’

    You have to admit that for all the benefit Pat Battuello gets for blogging on this Web site, the wide readership carries with it a proportionate share of criticism.

    My take: Is it a point of irony that he’s an animal rights advocate who owns and operates a pizzeria? I don’t really care. He writes an interesting blog that makes me think. Not enough to make me give up meat or morph into a vegan. I like my sausage pizza. (I also like those cute little baby seals, but not as outerwear. Or on my pizza.)

  21. I was a fish-eating vegetarian (no terrestrial meat) for about 12 years, not for political or ethical reasons, but just because I lost the desire to eat hunks of meat, and lost the ability to mentally separate what I put in my mouth from where it came.

    It was a personal decision, nothing noble or notable about it, and I never made a stink about it . . . to the point where, if I went to someone’s home and they served me a steak, I would eat it, because that’s what polite, well-raised people do, rather than making my hosts feel like they’d done something wrong by preparing me a nice meal.

    Toward the end of my run as a vegetarian, I got to where I really didn’t even want to mention it to people, lest they assume that I was morally in the corner of the wacky animal rights right, as Genghis Khan-like in their own way as the most dogmatic Republican Creationist/Originialists or Muslim Jihadists are in theirs. I’m not a joiner by temperament, and I didn’t want to branded by association.

    After my father was killed in a car accident a month after he retired, I realized that I didn’t want to find myself in a hospital bed at some point wishing I’d eaten more hot dogs, so I decided that a wiser course in life was to eat and drink what I want to, when I want to, without placing moral or ethical or social value structures on the simple pleasures of satisfying the flesh.

    If I want a hot dog today, I eat it. And I have no use for people who want to damn me for making that choice, having sat for a dozen years on their side of the table, trying to gag down tofurkey dogs because it seemed like the right thing to do.

  22. P.S. And, as is so often the case, the Overlords over at Upstate Ether have something to say on this topic:

  23. JES: If I reach a certain age, when I’m too old for it to matter any more, I may take up cigarettes again. I did find smoking somewhat enjoyable.

    Mike: Certainly, Pat’s posts have moved me in ways that few other writers here have managed. The stories he’s told and videos he’s shown are atrocious; it’s powerful and compelling and is changing the way I look at my food.

    My writing feels so foolish and insignificant next to what he does, but I just want to know one thing: if fish have feelings, why is it OK to bake them in a pizza oven? Isn’t that a reasonable question?

  24. Rob, stumbled across your blog and read it for the first time. The title happened to catch my eye and as I read your piece and the comments I identified with pretty much all that was written (so far).

    I have had the “I’m an animal lover but I love to eat meat” conversation with others, with even some of your posters here, and have come to the conclusion there is no easy answer to it.

    I do have to admit, I first thought you had misspelled “kerfuffle” and had to look it up to confirm the spelling. Of course, you had the correct spelling so I did learn something new.

    We may not have solved the conundrum of eating animals or vegetables but we did further my education.

    Never too old to learn.

  25. Chip: Thanks for reading. In the interest of full disclosure, I had to look up the spelling of “kerfuffle.”

  26. No problem, Rob.

    I guess I’d better disclose I spelled-checked my post before posting it and found out I misspelled conundrum in it!

    Go figure.

    Still learning…..

  27. Rob:
    Don’t get me started…..

    especially since I’m quite certain that I’m “the occasional hater” but is that because I’m intelligent to poke holes in every animal rights hypocrite theories?

  28. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. The ultimate arbiter in this venue is of course the editor, who maintained a few hours ago that Mr. Batuello “…writes an interesting blog that makes me think.”

    My eye beholds beauty as an environment where dialogue flows freely, even when there’s disagreement involved. Mr. Batuello’s arbitrary and capricious censorship of comments disagreeing with his positions is not, in my view intersting or stimulating. It is merely pandering to the number of clicks that the blogger generates for the use of the account executives in Sales.

    You can call me disagreeable. I confess that I am at times. I just happen to subscribe to the notion that crass commercialism and hypocrisy aren’t my cup of tea.

    Haven’t had a cigarette in year, but if I get to the point where it doesn’t matter anymore the first thing I’m going for is a pack of Marlboros.

  29. When you reach that certain age, it doesn’t really matter. Gerber’s cares not if it’s animal or vegetable; puree is puree and making it sound fancy French doesn’t change that.

  30. Anne-Marie Sheehan

    I’ve always pitied the live lobsters crammed in tanks at the grocery store. Those poor suckers are still alive.

  31. This is an argument I have with myself nearly every day.

    On one hand, I have a hard time justifying eating meat considering the commercial farms and slaughterhouses that treat these poor animals like a commodity rather than creatures with feelings. Chickens bred so that their breasts are so huge they can’t stand upright. Veal, good grief.


    I’ll grill an especially good cut of beef, drizzle it with garlic butter and herbs, cut it ever so thin on the bias – so it practically melts on the tongue – and I close my eyes and sigh.

    I hate this Jeckle and Hyde part of my food life, and it is a battle nearly every day. We do veggie dinners, but my husband love-love-loves it when I cook the meats.

  32. Here’s a good video on animal rights:

  33. Pizza ovens cause global warming too……man this guy is out of control, he hates anchovies AND Mother Earth. If I wasn’t too busy grilling steak, I’d march on the Capital with a sign.

  34. I’ve said it before..

    I’ll say it agian..

    The day a cow tells me, “Don’t do that,” I stop. Until then, pass the A1

  35. Patrick Battuello

    Rob, my mistake was not responding to you directly before deleting the comment. As Mike Huber points out, I have disclosed my career ( and how it relates to my activism. There were (are) a few hateful people (two on this thread) who would not move on to the next topic, instead diverting attention and energy from the animal-related issues being discussed. These people (hunters and meat-eaters who celebrate animal suffering) had (have) no intention of intelligently debating what I wrote. So, I then posted Moving Forward (, which makes Little Anthony’s, henceforth, off-limits. I thought your comment was sarcastic and antagonizing. You may not agree with my rule (a relatively-recent one), but I felt it necessary. As to not allowing dissenting opinion, please take the time to read comments from the past year. It is all part of the written record.

    If I was not vegan, then I would be a hypocrite. I have tremendous support from animal rights activists and vegan customers. Again, it is far easier to attack me than to look inward and reexamine your own relationship with animals. I know who I am, what I stand for, and what I hope to accomplish. By the way, Teri, your immaturity continues to astound.

  36. My name is Patrick Batuello and I am better than anyone who eats meat, and especially better than anyone who hunts, or who keeps animals hostage. I have a forum for my views that is rather like the mountain Moses came down from with the Ten Commandments carved on stone tablets. I make all the rules for this forum. I make them up as I go along because I am Patrick Batuello, and I am morally superior to all of you. I will decline to publish opposing views in my forum unless I in my wisdom decide that they are grist for the mill of my rhetoric. I am as mighty as Ozymandius; you should look on my works and despair, all you haters. You must engage in intelligent debate with me in order to be heard, intelligent debate being defined as recognizing your sinful past and humbly accepting the rightness of my views and my position of moral superiority, for I am Patrick Batuello, and there are no rules in my world but my own.

  37. Patrick Battuello

    Rob, one further point: Yes, I offer anchovies (and pepperoni, sausage, etc.), but I am trying (through the blog) to persuade people to order vegetarian or vegan options. I do not promote the meat on my menu (you will never hear me say, “you have to try our meatballs”); instead, I encourage omnivores to sample the faux toppings (vegan ck’n, meatballs, riblets, bacon bits). You have argued that I am (through my wholesale purchasing) feeding the system that I find so distasteful. But, that is not accurate. The demand always establishes the market. If Little Anthony’s no longer existed (or went all-vegetarian), would that have any affect on the Capital Region demand for pizza (or anchovies)? I am trying to change hearts and minds while being practical in the interim.

  38. Mr. Madeo –

    The fact that Pat Battuello is a duplicitous fraud has been well established. The flaccid defense and convoluted excuses he has provided on his blog trying to explain away his OWNERSHIP of a business that sells meat are shining examples of “do as I say … not as I do” hypocrisy.

    His belief that because he does not eat meat somehow absolves him of all responsibility for how he makes a living is an astonishing rationalization not unlike a concentration camp guard telling the tribunal at Nuremberg that they were “just following orders”

    Sad really.

    Mr. Huber – Please explain to us just what EXACTLY are the rules for disallowing posts to a blog.

    Do blog hosts like Madeo, Conroy, Marshall or Cea have total discretion concerning what they will and will not approve? If a submission to a blog here at meets all of the stated requirements in your published rules but the blogs host rejects it simply because it calls into question their own credibility … is that acceptable grounds for not publishing it ???

    Is this consistent with how all other non-TU employee blogs are written and moderated?

    Please respond Mike and not with some “gray area” equivocation. I have asked VERY direct questions … I’d like some answers.

    Full disclosure … I am not the Jerry who posted on this thread here at #13.

    I am the jerry who posted six or seven times on this thread.

  39. I am can’t believe that a group of adults can act like this. (Cooties? Pizza Hypocrite?) Especially those of you who are fellow bloggers, it is absurd, immature and just plain wrong. I feel sick and angered reading all of your comments.

    I am glad that Mike Huber weighed in on this and I reprint it here so that we may all see it again:

    “I jump into this discussion with serious anxiety, mainly because Rob Madeo makes me tremble with fear.

    It’s inaccurate to say Pat hasn’t addressed the issue. He wrote about it back in March:
    And his ‘day job’ was also listed in today’s Times Union, where we featured him as our weekly ‘blogger bio.’

    You have to admit that for all the benefit Pat Battuello gets for blogging on this Web site, the wide readership carries with it a proportionate share of criticism.

    My take: Is it a point of irony that he’s an animal rights advocate who owns and operates a pizzeria? I don’t really care. He writes an interesting blog that makes me think. Not enough to make me give up meat or morph into a vegan. I like my sausage pizza. (I also like those cute little baby seals, but not as outerwear. Or on my pizza.)”

    I think everyone needs to put pettiness and personal attacks aside and read what Mike has to say and realize that Pat did take on enough criticism and he has addressed it in his blog.

    I admire Pat for sticking to his beliefs and plugging away at his computer with the drive to educate people on animal rights issues. If I were him, however, I would not write one more word on this website. There is better company on other sites than that on the Times Union blog site, you all have proved that here (again) today. You should all be ashamed of yourselves.

    (In the interest of full disclosure, I am Pat’s business partner for the all-vegan business, Food For Thought. I am proud to be his partner and to call him my friend.)

  40. I don’t do drugs and never have; but I think I’m going to start selling crystal meth because it will bring a good income so I can have the finances and the platform to tell others not to do drugs.

  41. Whoa! This blog is totally out of control. You people need to get over yourselves, and move on. If you don’t like what Mr. Batuello has to say, then don’t read his blog! It’s that simple. I, for one, am grateful he writes on the TU site, because I’ve learned so much I wasn’t aware of prior. I have not changed all of my dietary habits, but, thanks to Pat’s postings and those of many of his readers, I’m more aware of how the things I eat make it to my table. I don’t find him elitist at all, just very well educated and eloquent. No one is forcing anyone to read or listen to his opinions. He has a right to his and you all have a right to yours’.
    Great job picking a subject, Rob. I checked, and I can’t seem to find another post that garnered so much attention. Oh woops, except for the one about the circus. Hm, I see a theme here…..

  42. Tina @ # 41 says – “Whoa! This blog is totally out of control. You people need to get over yourselves, and move on. If you don’t like what Mr. Batuello has to say, then don’t read his blog! It’s that simple”

    And yet Tina can’t seem to take her own advice as it pertains to this thread.

    I wonder why ????

  43. Rob:
    I was joking with some of my colleagues about something that would be really funny: Maybe someone could wrap an anchovy in a copy of PB’s blog background and send it to him as a message he hypocritically “sells the fishes”

    What really is immature Mr. Battuello is your blatant arrogance and reference to “the haters” as anyone who disagrees with your hypocrisy.

    If you don’t like what Mr. Batuello has to say, then don’t read his blog! It’s that simple.

    If you don’t like the circus – don’t go
    If you don’t want to hunt then don’t go
    If you don’t like meat then don’t eat any

    It’s that simple

  44. I take exception at Pat’s statement that hunters want to see animals suffer. I used to hunt and know many people who hunt. None of them want to see any animal they kill suffer. Just the opposite, they strive to take animals down with one shot. As far as this blog being “out of control”…..I see it as a lively debate. Now, throwing red paint on someone who is wearing fur, disrupting someone’s leagally run business, or shouting down someone just going about their business, that would be out of control. Not that I’m saying Pat does any of these things, but groups like PETA and the like often do. It’s almost lunch time….salad or burger?

  45. Pat: Thank you for taking the time to rerspond, but I have to respectfully disagree.

    Let’s say I wrote an anti-smoking blog and the focus of my content was the harm done by cigarettes. I would write posts about about the health effects of smoking, the dangerous additives used by tobacco companies in their products, the way advertising and marketing is used to lure people into the habit, and so on. Nothing wrong with that — but what if my day job were running a tobacco shop? Wouldn’t my business interests then be a legitimate topic?

    By the way, you never answered my simple question: if anchovies have feelings, why is it OK to cook them in an oven?

  46. I didn’t realize PB was such a polarizing personality till I read this. Why? Because I read his post ONCE, and realized he wasn’t talking to me. And I’m not listening either. I think I’ll go to BEFF’s for lunch.
    PS I think Teri Conroy has more animal friends then this Pat guy will ever have. Immature, no. Funny and caring, yes.

  47. Oh, and anchovies think they taste terrible too.

  48. Michael Huber,

    Answers to your questions:

    Do blog hosts like Madeo, Conroy, Marshall or Cea have total discretion concerning what they will and will not approve?

    If a submission to a blog here at meets all of the stated requirements in your published rules but the blogs host rejects it simply because it calls into question their own credibility … is that acceptable grounds for not publishing it?

    Is this consistent with how all other non-TU employee blogs are written and moderated?
    Yes, if you’re talking about our TU blogs, staff and non-staff.

    Here’s the thing, Jerry. Our rules allow for gray area. Some bloggers approve every comment. Most bloggers don’t. We give them guidance, but they decide what gets printed under their names and photos.

    And ultimately, the audience is the arbiter of our blogs. One of the things I’ve learned in five years of managing this section is that readers gravitate toward those blogs where a healthy discussion is found in the comments.

  49. I want Mike Huber to respond to Jerry #38’s questions. Kimberly #40, I was thinking along the same lines. Very good point!

    Tina, you and all the other animal rights folks should be ashamed of yourselves for your holier-than-thou attitudes, expressed beautifully in satirical comment #36.

  50. Mike: Now you tell me!

  51. Like I said earlier, I don’t care what diet you choose to persue.
    But I will interject that as I interpert it, the God of my religious beliefs, and other religions, too, provided “man” with vegetation, and animals, for food, clothing and shelter, many centuries ago. He did impose restrictions on the use of some species for food(today we, or at least I, realize why, but the people of the time, and probably many today, may not have fully understood it).

    My early childhood also exposed me to the humane dispatch of animals used for human food. Whether these regulations are God made or man-made, I don’t recall.

    I have relatives and friends of various beliefs – religious and dietary – and we respect and discuss the reasons for each others views, but we don’t try to change one another.
    At meal times, when in each others homes, or dining out, we abide by common sense, respect and understanding of our differences/customs.

  52. Patrick Battuello

    Rob, I understand and appreciate your analogy. I would certainly raise an eyebrow at your hypothetical tobacco shop owner. But sometimes we need to delve beyond the easy and obvious. For some, it matters not what type of business I own; they will attack the animal rights position regardless. And perhaps I should have made my position clearer: I, in no way, am condemning all hunters and meat-eaters. There are two from this dialogue that do indeed celebrate animal suffering in their hunting and meat-eating (like posting pictures of foxes caught in legholds). Animal rights is not for them.

    Most people, on the other hand, do care about how animals are treated (and I believe that you are one of them). They are the ones I write for. I admit to a thin skin at times, but, in the end, I only care about animal suffering. So, I pose this question: would you be more receiving of the message if it came from a different messenger? Ultimately, that is what truly matters. If you don’t find me credible, please seek out other sources. In all sincerity, if another writer could have a greater local impact, I would gladly pass the baton.

    Finally, assuming no sarcasm on your part, of course I believe that anchovies have certain feelings (at least the capacity for pain) and should not be killed for food. That is why I don’t eat them, and would love for you and all your readers to come in and try our vegan pizza (or many vegetarian options).


  53. Thanks, Pat. I think we can all agree that this is a complex issue.

    Reading what you’ve written has opened my eyes to a different question, one that’s perhaps a little less cynical and a bit more empathetic: isn’t it hard doing your job because of your vegan principles?

    Let’s face it: your business requires that you use meat and cheese. That can’t be easy considering your beliefs. Now lets all take a deep breath and move along.

  54. This may be beating a dead horse (not really!) but the whole problem is because PB makes his living selling processed meat and cheese (and lots of it!) but then preaches for others to live differently.

    He directly financially supports the entire system he condemns.

    And then gets mad when people point this put.

    Fits the definition for hypocrite.

  55. PB:
    For someone who doesn’t know me or has hunted with me or at all you claim to know so much about how/why I hunt. This from the person who in an ultimate show of immaturity once threatened me with legal action for slander yet tries to define me as “celebrating animal suffering”. It’s too bad for you that anyone that knows me, including several other bloggers/posters are aware that your assertions are completely false. Nice try – maybe in your next life you’ll understand ecosystems and that your actions, because of your ignorance and holier than thou attitude are more harmful to wildlife.

    Your analogy is right on and what B doesn’t see is that the messenger is important and one only needs to look at PETA for that. They take in and kill more animals in a month than any hunter could in their lifetime! They are hypocrites as are many of their followers. If you want more information about FOOThold traps (not leghold) I cordially invite you to read my blog article “The Infamous Foothold” where once again animal rights people like Pat are proven wrong.

  56. Pat- I really need to point out a correction…I call it a “foot hold trap”, you, and the majority of “animal rights activists” call it a “leg hold trap”, might seem like a “small and trivial point of samantics”- but it’s not. I have released MANY non-target animals, completely unharmed with the correct use of of the FOOT HOLD TRAP in my trapping activities. My legal and ethical practices will lead to my grandchildren and the generations that will follow to enjoy all forms of wildlife. This is a complex issue and neither you or I, through these blog entries will be able to fully explain the entire issue.
    In the end…I do believe we both care care about the welfare of the animals God has provided for our use and enjoyment within our complex world…
    We just disagree as to how to preserve this wonderful gift…Let’s keep the discussion going by considering ALL points of view…including science, and heart felt emotions.

  57. jerry – thanks for the clarification as to who the commentor on the blog is…we have crossed paths in the past…I’m Jerry and you are jerry…we share a “common BLOGO-SPHERE” and That’s GOOD!

  58. Seems like an awful lot of drama aimed at a guy who writes a blog on animal issues.Personally I like the blog–I find info there that I don’t see everywhere.I’m amazed at the amount of research he does and I find I agree with him more often than not.
    Must say he makes a decent pizza too.
    Lighten up gang–I think he already knows he’s not perfect–like us.

  59. It is not a complex issue, at all, I think. Mr. Pat owns a pizza shop that sells dead fishies and animals as food toppings. We are all inconsistent, or heck, even hypocritical in our own ways, large and small… for folks to see his stance as being hypocritical, especially as he offers voluminous posts demeaning others who do not share his values is the definition of reasonable… Mr Huber has done a masterful job at loading the blog rolls with thought provoking, web-hit generating bloggers, most of which are nothing more than free labor in a sense… The TU needs all of the relativity they can get, anyone who buys advertising knows the scoop… thus, there need not be strict journalistic type rules guiding the discussions… In the end, it is all a fun distraction that teaches us something sometime, like the whole sacktapping…. that changed my life.

  60. What, I’m sorry – because I hunt I celebrate animal suffering? Silly me. Here I thought hunting was a way to check out of the factory farming system and help maintain a healthy population of native species. Nevermind. We should totally let the deer run unchecked and destroy not only their natural habitat but everything around them, too. Much better for the population to explode and the animals to be hit by cars and starve to death – oh, not to mention all the disease that’d bloom in that environment.

    This, more than anything, is why I cannot take “ethical vegans” any sort of seriously (and I’m a freakin’ ethicist – I’m accustomed to bizarre beliefs running daily lives). There’s little to no actual understanding of human impact on the ecosystem, and how we now, by virtue of ancestral meddling, play a role in the care and management of species populations.

    Rob, falling back on my “special training” (ie lots of money to listen to other people tell me how to read books most people sensibly avoid), I think it’s pretty understandable that people, as a whole, compartmentalize. “Do as I say, not as I do” is a well-known saying for that precise reason – it’s common. People know what they want others to do, and they try to push them towards that vision of right action, while simultaneously holding up reasons that excuse their own “wrong” action. It’s very easy to us to make excuses that allow ourselves to skip out on right action/behaviour – as Battuello does when he excuses his omnivorous restaurant by saying that it’s a necessary concession to business. Since he’s within his own mind, he can justify not living up to the ideals he preaches. But Teri? She’s on the outside, and is being held to a different standard (as are everyone else) because they don’t have any good excuses for not being vegan/animal-free (because the only “good” excuse is the one that exempts the individual in question, in this case Battuello, from the standard being expected).

    Is it *hypocritical* of Battuello to serve omnivores if he’s an ethical vegan? Well, technically no – he’s not professing beliefs he doesn’t hold to hide his real feelings. Is it inconsistent and irritating? Sure is.

  61. Patrick Battuello

    First off, Kelly: Nice little rant, but you obviously do not read what I write (comment 52: “I, in no way, am condemning all hunters and meat-eaters.”). Again, far easier to attack without due inquiry. Also, I understand Ms. Conroy’s popularity virtually makes her untouchable, but reread her comments and please explain how they are not immature.

    Rob, I truly tried to find common ground and offer you the benefit of the doubt, but you always throw in a sarcastic shot – from Twitter, late yesterday afternoon: “Meat is bad (unless you can make money selling it to people.)” – that leads me to believe that Tina is right. This is a great attention-grabber for you and your blog. Getting a lot of play, huh? All, at my expense and with nice little one-liners sprinkled in.

    Finally, I do not, for the last time, have a “casual relationship with comments.” For you, or Teri Conroy, to make that claim demonstrates a stunning denseness and irresponsibility. Seriously, take the time to read the comments (especially from JRC/Joe Cea) that I have posted over the past year. Not open to criticism or dissenting opinion? Hardly.

    May I suggest (for your good and that of the TU) that, henceforth, you simply copy my entries and let your “Pizza Hypocrite” crowd have at it. This will be great fun and eliminate the burden of writing something with gravity (I’ll do it for you).

  62. Pat, I don’t make money from this blog — the way some people make money selling meat. I care little about attention or traffic.

    I write about what interests me, and it interests me that you are telling us what not to do while doing it yourself. I don’t have a problem with a vegan selling meat and cheese products, I have a problem with you shouting that it’s wrong and then doing it anyway.

    You are, as they say, talking the talk, but not walking the walk.

  63. Mr. Battuello,

    Do you actually believe that Mr. Madeo put up this post to generate comments?? Does he have a financial interest in getting hits? Does Mr. Huber pay him a buck for every comment he gets?

    Did it ever occur to you that if YOU HAD ALLOWED his comment about anchovies on you blog, this post and corresponding thread would have never been written??

    Why is it you are so quick to blame others for consequences that you have brought upon yourself?? Where you find the nerve to question the maturity of anyone is beyond reason.

    You seem to want to live in a world where anyone who does not share your positions or finds you to be a two-faced, hypocritical duplicitous charlatan with the ethics of a jackal should just shut up and be silent.

    Good luck with that … your gonna need it.

    By the way … don’t blame Madeo, Conroy or even Cea for all this “Pizza Hypocrite” business becoming part of the blog conversation.

    I am the one who first called you out for this profound hypocrisy.

    (my first post is number 13)

    And if you had not posted THAT blog where you offered up hero worship for convicted felon and terrorist you might have NEVER heard from me.

    Even your post where you told the native Alaskan people to move (YES that’s correct … Mr. Maturity once suggested that an entire society abandon their way of life so they didn’t have to eat meat) was not enough to provoke a response from me but celebrating violent criminal conduct was.

    Perhaps the time has come for you to “delve beyond the easy and the obvious” and take a good look at your own words and actions. In all likelihood, if you had not begun a policy of deleting posts that questioned your credibility as it pertains to Little Anthony’s, your name would have never come up on Mr. Madeo’s blog or any other.

    You have brought it all on yourself.

    Chew on that for a while and let me know if you can swallow it.

  64. I have a problem with Pat criticizing a woman who raises and cares and loves her animals the way Teri does. I have a problem with Pat criticizing Teri, especially after she wrote a post about how devastated she was after the fox killed her chickens and Annie the Duck, yet she did not take easy revenge on the fox.

    I notice that you failed to mention the mercy she showed the fox, Pat. I hate it when elite types like you leave out pertinent points like that.

  65. First off, no one is perfect…not a single soul.

    Second, good job on your veganism Mr. Battuello. I tried to follow that road but failed pretty hardcore after a month. It’s hard. Animals taste really good.

    Third, Mr Batuello owns a pizzeria restaurant that caters to the public. Just because he made the personal decision to become a vegan doesnt make him a hypocrite by any standard. His choice of eating practice and the menu of his restaurant are two separate entities. He is clearly open minded about his menu, and suggests the vegetarian options but doesnt force them.

    Forth. Mr Madeo…you are a rock star. Keep up the awesome blog my friend.

  66. I’m not too concerned about the hypocrisy so much as I ma bothered by this phony moral high ground. Make your own choice; there’s no greater or lesser worth to it. It really bothers me that when you buy that non-vegan pizza you get a free insult and snide remark of your character. People eat different things…move on. To me, that’s what makes the hypocrisy worthy of loud critique.

    “I’m a vegan…here have a sausage pizza…you know, you really should have a vegan-substitute pizza…No? Well, here’s your sausage pizza then, you cold-hearted butt-face…um, that’ll be $22.50 plus tip”.

  67. I had no idea this conversation was going on. I am afraid of Rob Madeo. I not only think he will throw you under the bus but he will also put the vehicle in drive and reverse several times and keep knocking you down. Mr. Cea is a hunter who has an ongoing conflict with Pat and will jump at any chance to attack him. Teri Conroy also has an issue with Pat and where it started I don’t know. I do know that Kathy Stevens, founder of the Catskill Animal Sanctuary, did write on Teri’s blog because Teri was knocking a rescue of abused chickens by members of the sanctuary and Kathy had to politely correct Teri’s information.

    If people would only take the time to read about the history of the pizzeria, the attempt at a vegan restaurant, and now the vegan option at his restaurant, people would realize Pat is getting his animal rights message out to the public while still making a living. I had the pleasure of meeting Pat this past spring. I was taken back by his polite nature, kindness, and deep love of animals. He is a very intelligent and humble person whom I would be honored to call my friend.

  68. i’m preeeeety sure this topic has been covered before. how bout some new material?

  69. Rob Madeo, Teri Conroy and Joseph Cea are NOT the subjects of this thread. You can try all you like to drag irrelevancy into this conversation and deflect the examination of Pat’s hypocrisy … it won’t work.

    What makes you think we have not taken the time to read Pat’s blog? How do you think we know what we know? We have drawn conclusions and formed opinions about Pat as a result of our FIRST HAND experience with him and his automaton disciples. And when the subject matter and his blatant hypocrisy became too much for him to handle … he stopped approving our posts !!

    It’s called cowardice and it goes hand in hand with being a two-faced, hypocritical, duplicitous charlatan with the ethics of a jackal.

  70. Jerry, honest question. Since Teri and Joe (not sure about Rob, so can’t include him in this) have repeatedly denied or deleted comments from their blog from those who disagreed with them, does that also make them two-faced, hypocritical, duplicitous charlatans with the ethics of a jackal? Or do you reserve that distinction for those who you disagree with and instead remain an “automaton” at Joe’s blog?

  71. You state that Teri & Joe “have repeatedly denied or deleted comments from their blog from those who disagreed with them”. This has NOT been my experience with them so I cannot accept the premise of your question.

    Further, I clearly stated that not approving posts was symptomatic of cowardice. The “two-faced, hypocritical, duplicitous charlatan with the ethics of a jackal” comes directly and exclusively from preaching ethical veganism and animal rights while owning a business that profits from the sale of meat.

    If you wish to challenge someone like myself in this forum you will have to sharpen those tenth grade debating skills up just a bit.

    But hey … thanks for playing … we have some lovely parting gifts for you.

  72. MJ:
    I had promised Mike Huber not to post on PB’s blog anymore and I have not so there is no on-going conflict. Then I see his bio where he refers to me as “one of the haters”. That said do I care for people that are blatant hypocrites, support terrorism, makes up his own rules for bloggers/commenters etc.. the answer to that would be an emphatic “No” and for the record I do know when the rift between PB and Teri occurred. I have met Teri and found her to be a compassionate person but has been portrayed as evil by PB and his followers.

    Can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen hunters/trappers being put down on his blog so I have responded to that criticism. Did you know PB approved a comment insulting my children? He has no scruples, no moral compass it seems. He’s all the attributes you ascribe to him as long as you agree with him but when you don’t…that’s another story!

    Take the circus for example. I must be a hater and lack any compassion because I don’t support a ban. One has nothing to do with the other. Did you know that the ASPCA paid over $90,000 to its “star” witness against Ringling Bros.? Combine that with the Supreme Court ruling that the BAN on crush videos is unconstitutional? Crush videos are deplorable but a BAN is worse as it erodes our freedoms. That same ban used for crush videos is the same ban that can be used to shut down an animal rights blog. Why would you support the very thing that can destroy you? Why does it seem that animal rights supporters have tunnel vision – they never think ahead as to what the consequences or possibilities are as a result of their actions which is ultimately dangerous for wildlife and our environment.

  73. Jerry, take a valium or something. You really get far too worked up over this stuff. Teri has closed threads which she deemed to have gotten out of hand – at least one that I know of, because I was a poster. Go look at her blog, unless your tenth grade research skills aren’t up to par. I have first hand information from at least one person who posted on Joe’s blog and had their comment denied, and a comment of mine was denied as well. These are the facts. Based on your post, I would assume you believe they, too, are cowards. Must be easy to live in such a black and white world.

    Someone like yourself… a bitter person with far too much time on their hands who has a hatred-bordering-on-obsession with someone whom he has never met? I’m shakin’ in my boots.

  74. HM:
    I only recall deleting one of your comments that contained an insult which you are prone to do in accordance with rules that were well established. The only other comments that have been deleted were one from “Tina” that contained an insult and one from PB that contained an insult. Furthermore, I have upheld my end of the bargain and not posted on PB’s blog or responded to you in any way, shape or form – I would appreciate you extending the same courtesy.

  75. Joe… apparently you don’t understand whatever your end of the bargain is, as you clearly just responded to me, despite the fact that my post was not directed at you, but at jerry. Which is your perogative – whatever, do what you want. But don’t pretend you’re some saint – you can delete whatever you want, that’s your choice. So can Pat. Someone criticizing Pat for deleting comments when other bloggers regularly do the same is inconsistent and hypocritical (not saying you did it, more referring to jerry). Regardless, there is a nice long record of the ridiculous plethora of personal insults you have posted on Pat’s blog. Would you care for me to repost them here? You know what they say about glass houses…

  76. I responded to your post and for that I must be “worked up” and in need of narcotic medication?? This suggestion says a lot more about you and your habits than it does about me.

    And despite your ignorant characterizations, I am not a hater, obsessed or even bored. I explained the genesis of my criticism of Pat in post number 63 on this thread. If he had not written in support of terrorism, he never would have heard from me.

    Everything you have stated about me is incorrect. Congratulations!! I suspect it is as close as you’ll ever come to perfection in any aspect of your life.

    This will be the last time I address you directly on this thread. That means if you reply, you’ll get the last word. I’ll bet that sets your tenth grade mentality all aquiver.

    However I would ask you to please take a little advice – “It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt”.

    Think about it.

    Lincoln may very well have had you in mind when he uttered that quote.

    PS – you wouldn’t need those boots you’re shakin’ in if you didn’t live in such a B*LL SH*T world.

  77. MJ: Flattery will get you nowhere.

    hellomolly: Regarding comments, I’ve only had occasion to delete a few. One was a personal attack against me that was off topic. Personal attacks against me that are on topic are welcome.

    Another time, a reader went over the line and used a comment as a platform to attack people in away that readers would have found offensive. That one was deleted.

    I don’t usually post on controversial topics, but when I do, people are not shy about calling me an idiot. I’ll always publish those.

    AND SPEAKING OF COMMENTS: Thanks to everyone for the spirited discussion. I appreciate the participation, but let’s try to be polite to one another.

    By the way, Pat’s made it pretty clear that he thinks I posted this for attention, and this is not the first time I’ve been accused of that by someone who doesn’t care for what I wrote. My point is simple: don’t lecture me us about eating meat at the same time you’re making money selling it.

  78. Jerry, nice job of ignoring the key point I made – that is, your inconsistency and hypocritical application of whom you call a coward. Guess that black and white world IS easy to live in – when it doubt, ignore the facts. Thank you for playing, better luck next time. 😉

    To Rob, your point is understood, but I also think you are missing the bigger picture: the essence of Pat’s message. As an aside, he didn’t “lecture you;” he did what the TU allows him to do, which is post a blog entry that is not directed at you or any one person in particular. It’s very easy to attack the messenger. It is much harder to actually consider the message.

  79. Michael Huber,

    While it’s true I asked Joseph Cea and Pat Battuello for a cooling-off period in April, when the two of them were shredding each other in their comments, I also tried to set up a public meeting with those guys to share views, talk about issues, etc. No such luck. Would have been interesting.

  80. Tell the truth, Rob. You want to eat anchovies on your pizza for one reason and one reason only: BECAUSE YOU HATE FLABBY TABBY and don’t want him to have them!!! (Full report on my blog coming soon! Oh the hits! Oh the comments! Oh the cash . . . wait . . . never mind . . . )

  81. Joseph,
    I went back and read the article. I did not see where Pat said Joseph Cea is “one of the haters”. Did I miss something? If possible I would also like a link to the article the ASPCA paying money to a witness. I like to keep track of organizations I support.

  82. Mike:
    Not to throw you under the bus but I was willing to take part in any meeting and as I recall it was PB that wanted no part in any meeting.

    By the way I sent you a email with a new idea for a blog on diabetes – my wife is a nurse and type 1 and I’m sure my father with type 2 would contribute articles as well about their experiences – let me know.

    As a side note:
    I once ordered a pizza with another guy on my floor when I was at Cobleskill and he ordered his half with anchovies and my half although plain tasted like fish and I am not a fish person!! – I ordered my own after that.

  83. Folks, do we really have to impugn the poor jackal here? Ecologically they fill the same niche as the coyote, and they tend to have very civil (if somewhat solitary) pack relations. Ethically, they’re pretty stand-up critters.


  84. Michael Huber,

    Hey Madeo, mind if we use your blog for my personal correspondence?

    Hey Joe: re: meeting with Pat. My diplomacy failed. You were willing to meet. Pat wasn’t. That’s the end of that idea.

    re: diabetes blog. Give me a call and let’s talk about it. 454-5069.

  85. Hey Huber, we need to get that Microbiz blog up and running again . . . oh wait, that’s me . . . never mind . . . 😉

  86. Mike:
    Sorry about using Rob blog that way it “just popped in there” – Ill call you about the new blog


  87. Yes animal rights activists do tend to be looney but overall you have to respect the fact that they are trying ultimately to help animals – sometimes you have to respect their determination and sheer stupidity. I love animals, respect them; keep many as spoiled pets or to be more accurate – more like my own children. I’ve always kept an open mind to activists and their cause, which is how most of us sane animal lovers are – open minded, however I have always found that most animal rights activists are more like left wing fascists. I have many vegan friends who will defend wearing a leather coat from the 60’s because “they didn’t know any better” when it was made. I have watched countless farm videos on the meat that is processed in America and while some of it is obviously true you must also keep an open mind that not all farms produce meat in that manner. One video on fau gras was particularly horrible and the undercover videographers eventually stole several ducks from their cages just to set them loose in the wild – as if captive bred domestic ducks can even survive in the wild but no one questioned that in the video. I have always defended animal research – GASP – because I work in the animal field and have been behind the scenes and know firsthand what really goes on. I once worked with another veterinary technician who was strongly against animal research and when she was fired for insubordination went to work for Taconic Farms, defended herself by saying she needed a job. When I read of Patrick Battuello defending his Pizza franchise I think of her. If Mr. Battuello really believed in making a difference in the world he would save up his money and open his own Vegan Pizza Shop and not have to work for “the man” leading to this hypocrisy. We all stand up for what we believe in and yes there is a big discrepancy preaching from your soap box and then sleeping with the enemy.

  88. My goodness…87 comments! Not sure why, but I didn’t think Mr. B and his readers would read this blog. So much for my sense of humor. Dang it anyway. I’ll keep my thoughts to private e-mails in the future. Certainly I’m old enough to think first…best start remembering to do that.

  89. MJ:

    Here is a link (and excerpt from one of my articles) for you – granted its from Ringling Bros. so credibility might be an issue for you which is understandable but consider that that fact is part of the court papers and THE reason the lawsuit was dismissed. that indicates a lawsuit brought in federal court was dismissed. Court papers indicate that the star witness for the ASPCA et al. was PAID over $190,000 to testify that he saw elephant abuse. If the abuse is so rampant then there would be no need to manufacture evidence.

    As far as “the hater” comment – PB has referred to me several times as a hater in his own blog so anyone following the course would know who it is in reference to – my colleagues actually knew who it was in reference to – and then here on this thread in comments 35, 52 (in this one he actually refers to a pic I posted on my blog saying I celebrate animal suffering) and also in comment 61 where I am actually named.

  90. Teri,

    “I love having chickens. I love eating chicken I don’t eat my pet chickens, just the fox does. Not sure if that makes me a hyprocrite.”

    Why love one and eat the other??? I smell something “fishy”. I guess it’s like having a dog to love and a dog to eat. Or a llama to love and a llama to eat. What’s the difference???

  91. WOW! talk about AN ISSUE that people LOVE TO HATE! Vegans, vegans, vegans, those crazy tree huggers! those crazy liberals who try to change the world with their out-of-the-box thinking! those crazy people who advocate for things that are not “popular” in main stream America. Yes, we LOVE to HATE them because we don’t want to acknowledge that maybe some of what they say is OR COULD be true.

    I have been vegan since 2001 after attending the annual Animal Rights Conference; I learned so much about the food industry it completely made me not want anything to do with it. Although I had been vegetarian for 8+ year prior, becoming vegan happened overnite: I shed anything and everything that said “I came from an animal.” I lost weight, I began reading labels more closely, I began eating alot more vegetables than ever, and I began looking at food much differently than before. I also began to examine my own decisions and my own life. I began looking at the world around me differently.

    So nine years later, in 2010 my definition of vegan has changed, a little. I look at the bigger picture and try not to get caught up on the small stuff: honey & sugar, eating a cookie that was made with an egg, accepting food that I know has butter but is being offered to me by someone who prepared it especially for me because they knew I am vegetarian so they did not add meat or cheese. Arguing about whether vegetables have feelings (yes, I still get into this discussion after people find out I am vega).

    In MY perfect world, we would all be vegan, we would not rely on oil for energy, animals would not be abused, and humans would have respect for all living beings. But let’s face it, this sounds like a fiction novel, right?

    So, instead, I try to educate people whenever I can, whenever THEY ask me questions. I talk about greed and the bottom line. I talk about the food industry looking at this bottom line and not caring for the “food” they are producing for the humans to eat. If people are going to eat meat WHY do the animals have to suffer the way they do? It doesn’t make sense from a moral point, but from a profits’ point, it does. The least amount of money and effort the industry has to put into maintaining some sort of dignity-of-life for these animals.

    But people simply don’t want to hear it! people are content being ignorant about how your food gets to their plates. People are content not having to put energy or effort into caring for themselves by eating healthier diets. But then again, our culture doesn’t even allow for this! All once has to do is turn the TV on and look at the commercials: Burger King, McDonald’s, Wendy’s, Taco Bell, the list goes on and on. A quick bite for a buck. That’s all we care about.

    We want cheap, and we want it now. That’s how I see it. So, there is no room for discussion in this mind set about the topic of animals for human consumption: NONE! So, I agree that it is much easier to criticize, to point fingers, to say people are hypocrites, much easier than having to learn & engage in a conversation about what is real about the food that people are buying.

    People in this country are overweight: that’s a fact. We have a huge problem right now with childhood obesity: that’s a fact. But why? well, next time you go shopping I invite you to read the label on the food you are purchasing: chances are the first ingredient will be sugar OR high fructose corn syrup. We are eating JUNK! is that simple! really, I personally don’t understand why people don’t see it. Can you imagine what could happen if people with their buying power (the almighty dollar) started purchasing HEALTHY FOOD! Let’s not get into that crazy discussion though.

    So, bottom line for me as a vegan who advocates for a healthier lifestyle through eating better — which means local foods, less processed foods, and meat/dairy that has not been enhanced with hormones and antibiotics — is that NO ONE IS PERFECT! not even the crazy vegans! But I think being aware of the facts and doing something about it is BETTER than looking away and ignoring reality.

    I invite you all to educate yourselves about food in general. You would not believe the things you will learn. For example: did you know that Pet Food is a by-product of the meat industry? yuck! Ever wonder what happens to those cows that are not deemed fit for human consumption for whatever reason (sickness or otherwise)? Yup! it ends up in Fido’s bowl. Don’t believe me? do a little research, I dare you 🙂

    Let’s not lose sight of the facts even while it is so much easier to point fingers and to start calling people names. This is simply a distraction from the real issue. It’s a tactic that is used when we simply do not want people to connect to reality and the truth.

  92. hellomolly: You wrote in a comment on Pat’s blog:

    I guess Rob Madeo justifies his eating habits by telling himself that you spend more on meat than he does. As if that absolves him from his own actions. Right.

    Since Pat deleted my comment, I’d like people to know that I wrote:

    You spend more money on meat than I do.

    I’m sure you won’t agree, but I think the volume of animal products one is responsible for consuming is a valid measure of their role in the meat & cheese system. For example, if I buy one pound of pepperoni per year and he buys seventy-five pounds, who is harming animals more?

  93. I think it’s worth noting that this is Mr. Battuello’s family’s business. If my family was in the restaurant industry and I had the opportunity to showcase a few meals that appealed to me and my lifestyle I would sure as heck take it. It’s not exactly pushing an ideology if you’re simply giving people different options on the menu. I assume the whole family isn’t vegan and that the business itself did not start as a platform for vegan dishes. It just evolved that way. You’d be alienating the majority of your paying customers if you said, “OK, yeah, from now on, no sausage.” If Pat had done that, we’d be criticizing his business prowess and calling his restaurant a folly. So he’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t. I think it’s more important to be there as an option and an educator than to try to be perfect.

  94. “If Little Anthony’s no longer existed (or went all-vegetarian), would that have any affect on the Capital Region demand for pizza (or anchovies)?”

    You, however, would not be selling it. You’d close down immediately or offer only vegan choices (I suspect you fully realize it that would be the same as closing down immediately since you’d be put out of business) if you walked the walk instead of talking the talk. In short, money is more important to you than animals.

    Also, you keep calling Teri immature without anything that really backs that up.

  95. Sarah, I liked your comment so please don’t take these the wrong way. #2, yes, but they’re still hypocrites and it rather wipes out their pleas to others to do as they say and not as they do. #3, yes, but you cannot afford those unless you earn a pretty high amount of money. OMG, the prices on local/organic. I just can’t pay those. Plus, it’s intimidating. Is there any difference in handling, storing and keeping? If so, I wouldn’t begin to know how.

    Freddie, thank you. I thought I was the only person who was driven crazy by all this fanatical respect for animal life whilst ignoring that plants are alive!

  96. Right on, Leigh. I say, go ahead and be a vegan and sell meat. I’m OK with that. However, being a highly visible advocate for animal rights while cooking them is troublesome.

  97. @70 – You’re confusing me with someone else. I’ve not deleted or denied any comments. One thread that I felt went above and beyond was closed, however, I gave fair notice hours before….after discussing it with blog boss.

  98. @90 – You posted the same question on my blog, and I’ve already answered it there.

  99. I’m sorry, but I can’t STAND Patrick B. I really think Mike Huber should have pulled his blog a long time ago.. the man is ignorant, insults the majority of the readers that disagree with his views, supports the actions of at least one person who committed illegal acts, and is, in general, a hypocrite.

  100. Am I 100??!!!!!

  101. I know, I know. It’s tough to identify that perfect balance between ideologies and practices. The reality is that the Battuellos have tried to make a vegan restaurant fly in Albany, but it didn’t work. Arguably, if he was in New York, San Fransisco, Austin or another big city with a significant vegan population it would have been a different story, but in those cities would an animal rights blog be as marketable/necessary? Probably not. So he can either go to another city where people are already on board with his beliefs and have a successful, entirely vegan business, or stay here in Albany where maybe being an educator is a more important role. I dunno. I agree that ideally we’d like our educators and role models to practice what they preach, but sometimes the message itself is more important that the person delivering it.

  102. Leigh: If his convictions against it are that strong, and he can’t run a vegan business here, he should get out of the restaurant business altogether, no ifs, ands, or buts. Because right now, he has committed what I would think would be the sin among sin of all vegans: making money off of the slaughter of animals for food.

  103. Erin L, I really disagree with that. I think having a business where you can have both vegan and non-vegan options is a more effective way of trying to get people to accept your ideas as reasonable and worthwhile. A non-vegan is probably not going to go out of his way to visit a vegan restaurant. But if the same non-vegan sees vegan and non-vegan options on a menu he is more likely to make that leap to trying something.

    It’s easier to affect change from the inside out. It’s easier – and more effective – to show people that you aren’t a fanatic or somehow out to convert everyone. If he got out of the restaurant industry altogether then what would become of his livelihood? When you have a family to support it would be irresponsible to let convictions, no matter how strong, take precedence over them.

    I admittedly don’t read Mr. Battuello’s blog regularly. I love his food, I love his cause, but I also feel like he sometimes his writing overlooks the nuances of this issue. And that sometimes he doesn’t get what I mentioned in the previous paragraph.

  104. “I’m sure you won’t agree, but I think the volume of animal products one is responsible for consuming is a valid measure of their role in the meat & cheese system. For example, if I buy one pound of pepperoni per year and he buys seventy-five pounds, who is harming animals more?”

    Rob, I think it’s a moot point. Harming animals in any way is wrong, IMO. Just because you believe you do it less than Pat does does not make you right or somehow absolved from your actions. That’s like saying that someone who kills ten people is worst than someone who kills two. It’s misguided, because killing is wrong regardless of the amount.

    “Right on, Leigh. I say, go ahead and be a vegan and sell meat. I’m OK with that. However, being a highly visible advocate for animal rights while cooking them is troublesome.”

    Why? As I said in my post on Pat’s blog… it is the message that is important, not the messenger. Dislike him if you want, hate him if you want… but to do so is really just a way of disregarding the MESSAGE. It’s a deflection, smoke and mirrors, righteous indignation, whatever you want to call it – it’s a way to turn the magnifying glass off your own habits and beliefs (difficult) and turning it on to the FALLIBLE HUMAN BEING, as we all are, who is delivering the message (exceedingly easy).

    I also liked Leigh’s post in #101. I second what she said.

  105. Leigh, that doesn’t let him off the hook. In short, even your argument allows that it’s his ethics vs. money. We all to some degree have to compromise our ethics to make a living. However, if one of your largest ethics is not eating meat, it’s more than a slight compromise to make a living selling meat. Even quitting and going to work for Price Chopper grimacing as you rang up somone’s hamburger would be far less hypocritical than a living wherein you actually promote meat eating.

  106. By the way, I won’t be getting pizza from Little Anthony’s any more. Ever.

  107. hellomolly: I appreciate your comments, but please don’t equate disagreement with dislike or hate. Too often today, those who disagree are branded “haters.”

  108. Rob, I understand, but be honest – you’ve dedicated three posts to mocking him. I’d say that’s at least a dislike. Hate’s probably too strong a word, but dislike… it certainly seems that way. -shrug-

  109. Disclaimer: I am Pat Battuello’s wife, and I am very proud of that fact, as I am extremely proud of my husband and his veganism.
    Disclaimer: I am NOT a vegan.

    Little Anthony’s is a family business, and it has always been a straightforward pizza shop. Nothing fancy…just a good, solid pizza from family recipes. The other menu items are incidental; they’re just there to give customers options.
    Now, fast-forward and the owner has become a vegan.
    What to do? What to do?
    Well, it obvious what he did; it’s all a matter of public record.
    Pat, with much thought and discussion, took OUR money from OUR family business and put it into an all vegan restaurant. OUR risk…OUR failure. That’s life.
    As he worked on the vegan restaurant, he offered more vegan options at the already established business. GOOD IDEA.
    Now vegans, vegetarians, and omnivores could (and do) come in to Little Anthony’s and dine together. GOOD IDEA.
    Imagine a family, any family. No. Wait. Imagine OUR family. Pat is a vegan, I am a vegetarian, one child eats meat, and the other is a vegetarian working on becoming vegan. SURPRISE! We all love each other and we all get along. Okay…we love each other and SOMETIMES get along, but you get the idea.
    Then, along comes the opportunity to write a blog on the TU. Animal Rights…”rethinking the human-animal relationship”. GOOD IDEA.
    Pat’s writing his blog, getting a following, and WHAM! Oh no, he buys and sells meat! Let the crucifixion begin.
    Whatever. I’m not posting to rehash all that. Just look at the hits this one post got referencing Pat’s “hypocrisy”. Look up Pat’s blog and see the comments his “coming out” blog generated. Yes. People are disillusioned. Got it. Heard you. I think you’ve made your point. Now…move on.
    My point is this:
    You know Pat as a blogger…that’s it. You have no idea of his personal journey – veganism or otherwise.
    He is a good man. He is a good man with a solid message; there is no way around that FACT.
    So…hear the message…agree or disagree…but move on.
    Thanks for your time.

  110. Leigh, you’re getting to the heart of my issue. I feel the ways he presents the issue has “fanaticism” written all over it- the way he won’t post disagreeing comments, making his blog essentially look like 99% of the people who comment agree with him; the way he condemns anyone who chooses to eat, hunt for, or otherwise participate in the consumption of meat; the way he writes inflammatory posts attacking others.

    I get that he needs to make a living. I really do. What I don’t get- or condone- is the methods he uses to spread his message, all while wholly condemning others who support industries while animals are harmed, while he himself buys tons of meat products for the business and then says that he has a clean conscience. And that’s why I think he has no place in the business. I feel that his blog is not only a projection of his own idiosyncrasies to an extreme degree, but is also a barely masked-hatred for anyone who disagrees with him. And I wonder how much of this resentment is also projected onto his customers, who buy the meat that he makes money off of but then says that he has to sell. And that’s why I think he’s in the wrong business.

  111. hellomolly: Mocking? My post about the anchovies asked a legitimate question. The one about the pet meeting was out-and-out satire — which apparently touched a nerve. Today’s item was more self-mockery than anything.

  112. “the way he won’t post disagreeing comments”

    Erin, if you had ever taken the time to read any of the commentary on countless posts Pat has made, you will see that he has approved a slew of nasty, mean, ad hominem attacks against him. For months he approved those comments. I made a complilation of them from ONE single person in particular and there are dozens of them. Look over any of the posts he made several months ago – the comments are FULL of people who disagree with him and don’t mind resorting to mockery and name-calling in an attempt to make their point. If you read his explanation for why he no longer allows such comments, maybe you would get it. But since you’d rather spout off without knowing the facts, you don’t. It’s too bad.

  113. hellomolly,

    I am WELL aware of the comments that used to be made. But he stopped approving even the most subtle of disagreeing comments a while ago ago. And Patrick’s hands aren’t clean- as was stated earlier, I saw posts where my jaw actually dropped because of some of the people whom your beloved Patrick insulted.

    Don’t tell me I don’t know the facts, when clearly you have no clue. His blog comments have been trending in a different direction- tell me on the last on where the comment that is referenced later by Jerry went?

    Oh, wait, I know. Patrick nerfed it because he couldn’t take the criticism. Sorry. My bad.

  114. By the way, I did read his explanation, and I think it’s crap. He can’t take criticism.

  115. If the Inuit/Eskimo people should move to a location where they would be able to live a vegetarian or vegan lifestyle so that they no longer harm animals, Pat should follow his own advice and close down his pizza shop which supports the processed meat/cheese industry, and reopen his all vegan dream restaurant in a location where there is a market for it. To continue supporting the processed meat/cheese industry (harming animlas) is unethical.

  116. Donna H, I get what you’re saying but it’s a little different when the business has been in your family. Giving up a family restaurant because you are vegan would be akin to tossing your grandmother’s antique ring in the trash because you’re opposed to blood diamonds.

  117. Thank you, Kathleen! You have said it all. I hope this stops all this craziness. You have a wonderful person for a husband, and it sounds like he has a great wife!

  118. Are you “well aware” of them because you made them yourself? Probably. You truly don’t know the facts, sorry. Pat has posted plenty from meat-eaters and hunters who respectfully disagree and don’t turn the conversation into an attack-fest that focuses solely on the messenger. It’s just that the vast majority of those who post in disagreement do so in a nasty, ad hominem way. Tell me, what’s the point of keeping up a post that calls the blogger a terrorist and a useless human being with less worth than a pig? He’s also deleted posts I’ve made when they’ve been out of line – multiple ones. He does not simply haphazardly delete any comment that is in disagreement.

  119. And really, Erin? He stopped posting “even the most subtle of disagreements” a while ago? Guess that this: “…aren’t you being a hypocrite?” must have been posted months ago. Oh wait. It was posted yesterday. Imagine that.

    Or what about this one, posted a week ago?: “How on earth do you make it through each day, Pat?” Or this one: “Are you kidding me? You wasted all this time, effort and electricity on this?” Or this one: “The same people who claim fish feel pain claim that aborted fetuses do not.” Or this one, which is just hilariously ironic: “Not surprising I 100% disagree.” That person went on to explain why they disagree with Pat, but did so without any personal attacks. What a novel concept.

    Lookit that. People who disagree. And their posts weren’t deleted. Guess you truly don’t know the facts. Oh well.

  120. Yes Hellomolly, I did make some comments that were removed or not published to begin with, particularly regarding the Ringling Bros circus, most of which were NOT out of line.

    It’s now coming out that Patrick has not posted a wide variety of comments that did not directly attack him, merely questioned his ideology. I don’t know why it’s so hard for you to see that he simply does not want to publish the majority of comments that question his beliefs.

    By the way, I thought was REALLY lovely of you to say what you did in comment #73, very nice. So you flame those who criticize Patrick’s beliefs for namecalling then turn around and do the same thing.. is everyone who agrees with Patrick a hypocrite? Just asking.

  121. Molly, read this thread. Read others, and see what people say was the content of the comments not approved. I never said that he wasn’t approving ALL of them, but that he is snuffing out the vast majority of comments that aren’t in line with what he wants people to believe.

    Guess you can’t read too well.

  122. So Erin, when are you going to criticize jerry for flaming me, Pat, and others? Or do you, like jerry, reserve that distinction just for people you don’t like? Sorry you prefer to take things out of context.

    Your assertion that the posts Pat deleted “merely questioned his ideology” just prove how little you know about the entire issue. And you didn’t answer my question – what is the PURPOSE posting comments that attacking the messenger, his livelihood and business? What point does it make? How is it at all useful or helpful when one considers the MESSAGE in the first place? It’s not. It’s pointless and simply a diversion. A post made by someone stating that they spend less money on meat than Pat does is POINTLESS! It does NOTHING. But hey, if attacking Pat as a human being, and now me apparently, makes you feel better about your own choices, go ahead. I expect that’s the root of this issue anyway.

  123. Kathleen,

    You are to be admired for coming to Pat’s defense. However I would ask you to consider this – If Rob Madeo ran his blog the way your husband runs his … your very thoughtful comments would never have seen the light of day. Would they???

    Why is the subject of Pat’s meat & dairy selling business off limits? It is relevant to the discussion because Pat is earning his living by doing exactly what he tells others not to do. THAT MAKES IT RELEVANT !!!!

    Numerous analogies have been offered by me and others (the best was Rob’s example of a tobacco shop owner who writes an anti-smoking blog) of the inherent conflict presented by a man who uses his blog to thunder away at livestock agriculture, dairy, circuses, aquariums and native Alaskans. All while PROFITING as an OWNER of a business that sells these very products.

    The summation of your post is that we “move on”. You also suggest Pat has a solid message. If that message is so solid, what can’t it stand up to criticism and debate from people who believe that there is nothing wrong with eating meat?

    You and Pat and his supporters want us to concentrate on the message and not the messenger. You all need to understand that if the messenger has no credibility then the message … no mater how right and true … suffers from guilt by association.

    Pat is a willing part of a machine that raises, slaughters and distributes pork, beef, poultry, dairy and seafood. This means he no standing and no credibility to encourage anyone to change their eating habits or practices.

    Instead … it makes him a hypocrite and there is no way around that fact.

    PS – can you ask Pat why posts that were approved and posted to his blog yesterday have today, been removed.

  124. Donna H: I encourage people to patronize the place. I’m going to try the vegan pizza — although I may send someone else in to pick it up.

  125. Man, Rob – at least the people that get under my skin are outside of the Capital District (see: Rocky Mountain Film Lab, August Cove Resorts)

  126. Chuck: Fortunately, nobody’s under my skin. There seems to be a battle among the peanut gallery, however.

  127. Hellomolly: I don’t care who flames you. I really don’t. And the message is stunted when the owner supports the very thing he states he dislikes. Oh, and regarding my own choices? I feel fine with them. I’ve killed turkeys and chickens and I don’t know what else because I grew up on a farm. While I won’t say that I liked taking a life, I will say that they were damn tasty once cooked, and that they were fat and happy up until they became deceased.

  128. I actually disagree with both the use of “educators” and also the long Vegan as a victim post above. There’s no educating needed or occurring and there is also no need to have a perfect little world where everyone does as you direct. It’s not a lack of education, it’s a food choice. Lord love you for making yours; leave me alone to make mine.

  129. Thanks to

    mes·sen·ger   /ˈmɛsəndʒər/ Show Spelled[mes-uhn-jer] Show IPA
    1. a person who carries a message or goes on an errand for another, esp. as a matter of duty or business.
    2. a person employed to convey official dispatches or to go on other official or special errands: a bank messenger.

    mes·sen·ger (měs’ən-jər)
    n. 1.One that carries messages or performs errands, as:
    a.A person employed to carry telegrams, letters, or parcels.
    b.A military or official courier.
    c.An envoy to another person, party, or government.

    2.A bearer of news.

    3.A forerunner; a harbinger: the crocus and other messengers of spring.

    4.A prophet: the messenger of Allah.

  130. “Holy crap” Frank Barone – you apparently opened a can of worms here – glad I never read Pat’s blog – I am all about getting rid of toxins in my life!

  131. ChristineV: I’m pretty sure worms are off limits in the vegan diet, canned or fresh.

  132. jerry, we’re all part of a great many flawed, “systems,” that we are incapable of escaping. We sometimes disagree with how our politicians represent us, we hope that certain things we buy weren’t produced in sweatshops even though, in the back of our minds, we know they probably were. And some of us think that the food industry is seriously messed up. It’s unfair, though, to expect someone to divorce himself completely from a system that is very nearly inescapable. I mean, short of moving out of the country or becoming 100% self-sufficient, it’s just not going to happen. In America even the companies that sell organic produce in supermarkets and make some meat substitutes are owned by bigger, badder guys.

    I think that Mr. Battuello’s detractors are making the mistake of holding him to an unattainably high standard. We all have to participate in things, every day, that we don’t think are entirely kosher. That’s why we yap about them (politics, economics, animal rights,) so we can maybe change them for the better. 🙂

    BL, if you aren’t interested in the subject matter, that’s one thing, but anyone who shares something with you that you didn’t know before is an educator. We all eat what we want to eat and not everyone cares to learn about food sources and production but you can’t argue that there aren’t things to learn on the subject.

  133. Erin, thank you for confirming your hypocrisy. I don’t care about how you feel about your choices. Anyone who feels the need to post like you do – with such vitriolic hatred and determination to remain ignorant – clearly has some underlying problems. Good luck with that.

    BL, no problem. Ignorance is bliss!

  134. hellomolly, I apologize to you and all the other vegans out there for the fact that I enjoy eating meat. I assure you, I don’t hate any of you; I rather pity the fact that you can’t see beyond the fact that some of us, in this world, depended on farming for sustenance and AREN’T ashamed of it; and others just like to eat meat.

    I’m done here, because you’re just going to continue ranting at whomever you please, without the consideration of thinking DIFFERENTLY for a change.

  135. Allow me to pose a hypothetical — and let me stress that this is a hypothetical, not a comparison, so spare me the attacks:

    Let’s suppose that there were a Times Union blogger who was against abortion. Several times a week, this blogger would go into great detail about the procedures used in abortions and show graphic images of aborted fetuses. The writer would employ the most shocking materials available to persuade you that abortion is an evil practice. Would it matter to you if the author of the blog were an OB/GYN who performed abortions as part of his or her medical practice?

  136. I don’t care if you enjoy eating meat – most people, vegans or vegetarians or not, do. I certainly did when I wasn’t a vegetarian. It’s not about enjoyment. You are very right about thinking differently. As you continue to remain in the vast majority of people who think exactly like each other regarding eating meat – an opinion usually based either on ignorance, disregard for life, apathy, or some combination – I can see you most definitely have not ‘thought differently’ about this topic at all.

    Rob, that’s an interesting hypothetical. Definitely gave me pause. But regardless of how I feel about that hypothetical situation, whatever I say will be construed to apply to the situation with Pat and his blog and I don’t think I’m taking the bait, sorry. Can’t really win.

  137. Bait has feelings, too, hellomolly. 😉

  138. So true Rob, so true… lol 😀 That’s why I didn’t take it I guess, haha

  139. It’s not an unattainable standard to practice what you preach. There are many ways to support yourself and your family that do not involve supporting the animal slaughtering you are supposed to be against. If being that “ethical” is so important to a person, it would extend to how they make a living in this world as well. For many people, it is that important and they are indeed able to support themselves and their families without supporting that which they oppose.

  140. I think that Mr. Battuello’s detractors are making the mistake of holding him to an unattainably high standard. We all have to participate in things, every day, that we don’t think are entirely kosher. That’s why we yap about them (politics, economics, animal rights,) so we can maybe change them for the better.

    No, Leigh – he’s not being held to a high standard. He is, instead, holding others to a high standard that he doesn’t apply to himself. See A.M. Bush’s excellent example (which other people brought up earlier): Battuello has said that the Inuit/Eskimos should move to climates where they can live a veg* lifestyle. If this is the standard he demands of Native Peoples – people who have a very rich history and culture based around where they live – then the least he can do is hold himself and his family to that standard, and move to a place where they can all live/work and abide by their individual ethical principles. (So, for example, move to a place where they can open a vegan restaurant, still eat meat for those who do, etc.)

    As he notes in those two posts, we do live in an era where people can have foods shipped to them – this, of course, is ignoring the footprint of shipping, especially to Alaska and the Northern Territories. (And as someone whose family is from Alaska, and in fact has a half-Inuit aunt, I can tell you, the further north you go, the way more expensive and unsustainable it gets). Equally, we live in an era where people can move.

    The problem people are repeatedly pointing out here, regardless of Battuello’s supporters, is the fact that Battuello is willing to proscribe and demand changes of others he will not make himself.

    I think that it would be lovely to see a blog that discussed the difficulties in living an ethical, edible, sustainable lifestyle – my primary area of interest and research for the past few years has been precisely that: how we eat, and why we eat the way we do. But Battuello is not offering this – he is offering a blog that operates on a “judge me not by what I do but by what I say” basis. And what he does speaks much louder than his words.

  141. Just wondering

    This could just go on forever. Besides none of it has any worth anymore – it’s turned into the “Hellomolly-Erin L” show. Why don’t you just stop reading his blog if you don’t like the way that he handles it and if you think he has no credibility? Read a different blog.

  142. I was TRYING to read a different blog, but I made the mistake of choosing this one, which has been overrun by the peanut butter police.

  143. Rob, in #136 you finally touch on something that’s been bugging me all along . . . the “torture porn” element of Pat’s blog. You can make the points you want to make, anti-meat and anti-abortion activists, without wallowing in the most explicit imagery available that’s related to your chosen topics. I get it. It’s repulsive. But the problem with the approach of repeatedly shoving repulsive images in my face is that I would also find video of open heart surgery, a kidney transplant, childbirth, and just about anything else (positive or negative) involving the shedding of blood and/or revealing of any living creatures’ inner workings to be repulsive. I cannot comprehend a mindset where people, in the name of “research,” spend time watching and sharing such imagery. It undermines their arguments, rather than reinforcing them . . . .

  144. Just wondering- I’m going to just briefly answer your question, and then let my part in this thread die- but I WAS ignoring it, for a very long time. The thing is, then it starts to spread to places I wasn’t ignoring. Not the fault of the people who discussed it, but to be honest, I couldn’t ignore the posts all over the place and I’ve had issues with the PB’s blog for a long time. There’s a lot to be said regarding the matter, IMO, since many of my comments were never posted by PB, but I’ve said pretty much all I’m going to say at this point on the matter.

  145. JES: Every movement has it’s zealots, and those people are typically way out on the radical fringe. Thankfully, our society usually settles somewhere in the middle, near the average of the two most extreme arguments, if you will.

    I’d say that the material we’ve seen in the TU animal rights blog is extreme. I don’t know how anyone could watch it and not be repulsed, but more puzzling is how someone can throw it in our faces while shelling out money to the industry he despises. I don’t expect average people to be ethically pure, we all have to make compromises. However, if you are casting yourself as a crusader, by sharing your graphic and atrocious tales of abuse, please be fully committed to your position.

  146. Rob, I believe for the first time ever, I am in agreement with you 100%! It’s difficult to jump on PB’s bandwagon when the bandleader doesn’t fully practice what he preaches. If you keep up with great posts like this, Mr. Huber may have to consider some form of monetary compensation???

  147. @134, hellomolly – thus also must be self-determination.

  148. Well Mr. Madeo, are you proud of yourself. In my eyes you are the ultimate “class bully”.

  149. Came home last night to do my usual perusal of the blogs I frequent and saw a lovely comment from jerry in which he called me a douche bag (well, his word’s were “a sack of summer’s eve”). Called a friend to have her read it and poof! It was gone. Just curious; why not leave it there so everyone can see the quality of this commenter’s character? Rather than refute anything I said, he chose the low road and called names. Granted, his post was removed from Pat’s blog (his prerogative), and my post doesn’t make much sense as I was referring to it, but, I guess I’m just wondering; why not let everyone see jerry’s true colors?

  150. Deb: Nonsense. I asked a legitimate question, one I would never have written about if Mr. Battuello had allowed an open conversation on his blog.

  151. tina: I haven’t deleted anything, but I will say that some of the comments — on both sides of the conversation — have been beyond what I’d consider polite.

  152. Looks like Pat is deleting all comments to final blog…oh well, he won’t be missed by me.

  153. Sure hide behind that excuse-you’re allowed. I would also like to point out that your friend, Teri, has not posted my comment from last night yet has posted comments made by others praising her which were written after mine. All I said was she owed Pat an apology. Hmmm. You are keeping fine company.

    This is the end of the road for me. I am totally disgusted with the way this blog has gone and have never witnessed such mean spirited people. You, Mr. Madeo, kept fueling the fire, Teri was your cheerleader, and Mr. Huber-where were you when this whole mess got totally out of hand? You can all pat yourselves on the back.

  154. Hm, must have been hallucinating – probably from a lack of meat…

  155. to All:
    I agree you posed a legititmate question and it is clear that open conversation on PB’s blog is/has never occurred. It is also clear that I am not the only one who has issues with an animal rights person that contributes to and profits from the slaughter of animals all the while preaching from the mountaintop. It would be analogous to my own blog and writing about not poaching and then being caught poaching – I would have no credibility and rightly so. Not that I plan on poaching anytime soon – which is to say never – but I would stop writing if that ever came to fruition.

    It is also clear that I am not the only person who has issues with a blogger that “doesn’t follow the rules” that we have all agreed to abide by.

    PB can blame me and my “denseness” all he wants to try and deflect the fact that he has brought all this on himself. He has advocated the use of mentally retarded children for research in place of more intelligent pigs but doesn’t have the courage and conviction to actually say so, insulted Holocaust survivors, supported terrorists and I can’t tell you how many times I’ve been called ignorant (and my children) and that I lack compassion and that I am cold-hearted and cruel and why – because I don’t support a ban on circuses but could that be because I take into account a bigger picture and realize that a ban “down the road” is more dangerous than a bull hook and this coming from someone with no ecological foundation from which to speak.

    How ironic it is in the farewell he tries to point out that he didn’t get the benefit of a meeting with Rob Madeo or Teri Conroy but through Mike Huber REFUSED to meet with me – another tally mark for the hypocrite team! One reprinted comment he actually “called out” a grandmother!

    On behalf of all the hunters/trappers that have been branded cruel, cold-hearted lack compassion by the “pizza hypocrite” I say DING-DONG THE WITCH IS DEAD!

  156. Deb: I re-read all my comments and I can say without reservation that every single one of them was respectful and reasonable.

    If you want to blame me for what other people have written, that’s your choice. I’ve presented my argument in a logical and measured way and I have nothing to be ashamed about.

  157. @155-Deb – Assuming you supplied the correct e-mail address, I e-mailed you privately last night regarding your comment.

  158. Rob Madeo, Man of a certain age, killer of a certain blog. 😉

  159. Can blogs, like anchovies, feel pain?

  160. Guess it was PB’s way or the highway. This is the problem I have with PETA and many members of the vegan crowd–the smugness, the forceful way they jam their beliefs down everyone’s throat. I would be more inclined to follow someone who leads by example. PB is the exact opposite of that, and his space on the TU blog page was more like propaganda anyway.

  161. “Sure hide behind that excuse-you’re allowed. I would also like to point out that your friend, Teri, has not posted my comment from last night yet has posted comments made by others praising her which were written after mine. All I said was she owed Pat an apology. Hmmm. You are keeping fine company.”

    Deb, you need to ask yourself if your comment was relevant to the subject of her blog, which is her farm and what goes on there. If your comments was not relevant, and it appears to me that it was not, you shouldn’t be surprised that it wasn’t published.

  162. Joe, why would someone want to meet with a person who has called them “a useless human being with less worth than a pig” and a plethora of other insults? Hmm, I wonder. Your latest pathetic rant is just more proof of your ultimate goal – to stifle all viewpoints that contradict your own. I’ve said it before, I’ll say it again – grow up.

    I’m sad Pat’s leaving. Those of you who posted here, on his blog and elsewhere with such intense hatred for him can enjoy continuing to remain ignorant and closed minded, deflecting the argument from the real issues and onto a fallible human being. It’s what you wanted in the first place, anyway.

  163. And all of you who say you can’t “jump on PB’s bandwagon” because he doesn’t practice what he preaches… What about the MILLIONS of other people who are vegan and live a vegan lifestyle but don’t have a restaurant for a business? Would you jump on their bandwagon? Of course not, because it’s not about the issues for any of you – it’s about ignoring the issues and instead focusing on the FALLIBLE nature of every human being. Because any one vegan, even the most perfect one of all, wouldn’t be good enough an example for any of you. You’d find something to harp on and then use that as the reason why you can’t take their message seriously. Don’t break your arms patting yourselves on the back.

  164. hellomolly: Once again, this wasn’t about him being a vegan and running his business, it was about him becoming the are’s most visible and vocal advocate on the topic — all the while doing exactly the opposite of what he professed to believe.

  165. He doesn’t do the exact opposite of what he professes to believe. He’s a vegan. He doesn’t eat meat or wear animal products. He supports a vegan lifestyle, which is… not eating meat or wearing animal products. So actually, he does exactly what he professes to believe.

    Rob, if someone else took up the Animal Rights blog mantle and posted similar articles to what Pat has posted, do you think everything would be all roses and butterflies because that new person doesn’t run a restaurant? Or do you think people would be equally as hateful and mean to that person as they have been to Pat and would probably find SOMETHING (maybe that they drive a car, because aren’t there animal-based products used in some vehicles? Or that they patronize a Price Chopper, which – gasp – sells meat? Or that they use a toothpaste that was tested on animals? Or that they have a heart condition and use a drug that was tested on animals? Or they rinse with Listerine, which is produced by a company that tests on animals? the examples are ENDLESS) else to harp on? Because I’ve read a lot of animal rights blogs and can tell you – I’m absolutely 100 percent positive that the reception that ANY vegan would receive on a TU blog about animal rights would be full of hatred and contempt for that person AS A HUMAN BEING.

  166. hellomolly: Oh, there would be arguments, but not like those that go on now. You wouldn’t hear a peep out of me, though.

    I know you’ll never agree, but someone who buys meat and cheese by the bucketload is a bigger contributor to the suffering of animals than a casual consumer — just as someone who dumps a truck full of trash along the road is worse than someone who tosses a candy wrapper out their window. They’re both doing something wrong, but there are different degrees of involvement.

    Now imagine if the guy who dumped a truck full of trash had a blog about protecting the environment? What would you say then?

  167. It’s not that I agree or disagree. It’s that I think it’s a moot point, like I said before. I completely understand why people criticize Pat and call him a hypocrite. But I truly do not understand why the identity of the messenger is so important, to the point that it spawns multiple interwebs stonings, comment wars, and such absolutely intense hatred as we’ve seen here. The message is the same regardless of who delivers it. He’s a human being. He’s not god. He’s a human being full of contradictions and inconsistencies, just like every. single. one of us. I have a friend whose a vegan… he’s environmentally conscious, eats only local foods, does not eat or wear meat products. I’m pretty sure he would agree with everything Pat has posted and wouldn’t mind putting his name on it. If he did, I’d bet you a million bucks that someone would see his decision to drive a not-so-gas efficient SUV as hypocritical and a reason to disregard his writing. Then they’d post something hateful on his blog, which would probably spawn more comment wars. And the cycle continues.

    What if a litterer told me not to litter, hmm… I’d probably say to myself (not out loud) that even if I think they’re a hypocrite, they’re right. Then again I’m kind of the tree hugging hippy type anyway. 😉 It’s like when I tell my little sister to pick up the dirty plates she left in the family room. She yells back that sometimes I don’t pick up my plates, why should she? What she doesn’t get, because she’s a stupid teenager (haha, just kidding… sorta) is that just because my actions were wrong does not mean she is absolved from doing the same wrong actions herself. It’s cliched but two wrongs don’t make a right.

  168. hellomolly: Regardless of their opinions, if everyone took the time to write comments like yours, the whole blogosphere would be a more civil place. Thanks.

  169. Haha, thank you! And same to you. I’m no saint – I’ve said some awfully nasty stuff in comments on blogs, including some in this thread, that’s for damn sure. And I’m not proud of it at all. But I’m trying to improve.

  170. Would you jump on their bandwagon? Of course not, because it’s not about the issues for any of you – it’s about ignoring the issues and instead focusing on the FALLIBLE nature of every human being. Because any one vegan, even the most perfect one of all, wouldn’t be good enough an example for any of you.

    Hellomolly, you are right that this isn’t about the issue of veganism for me, because I have no issues with vegans. I, however, tend to have a pretty serious problem with people acting in contradictory holier-than-thou ways and thinking that not only is it okay, but it’s acceptable, and that’s what I see Battuello doing.

    I also have no problems with vegans who strive to live to their standards and beliefs, but acknowledge it’s not always possible – especially in the very processed world we live in. I think it’d be great to see a vegan blogging here, especially if it included information about recipes, cheaper options than the co-op for food, and so forth.

    I do have a problem with any vegan who’s going to tell me I am an unethical human being for living my life the way I do, and that I should live my life the way they tell me to – while they themselves don’t live their life in that manner.

    Look at it like this: why is it okay for an ethical vegan to buy animal products in bulk to resell, but it’s not okay for an ethical vegan to work in a tannery? Why would it not be okay for an ethical vegan to work in a slaughterhouse? A butcher shop?

    Modern animal rights comes directly out of Peter Singer’s book Animal Rights. It’s a utilitarian credo against speciesism, and since it is utilitarian, it is driven by the idea of the greatest good for the greatest number, where animals are considered part of the number that count.

    Singer doesn’t say that you shouldn’t eat animals – however, he does say that modern agricultural practices make it nearly impossible to raise and slaughter an animal without causing pain and suffering, and as such the practical solution is that people who genuinely care about this issue need to adopt a vegan or vegetarian lifestyle in order to opt out of the system that is causing pain and suffering. Again, think in terms of the greatest good for the greatest number.

    This is the problem. Being an ethical vegan means opting out of the modern agricultural practices that cause pain and suffering to a large number of animals. Buying meat by the bulk from CAFO-supported operations is not minimizing suffering or operating for the greater good. If Battuello was buying all of his meat products and by-products from small, independent, local and humane farms, I doubt I would even blink – at least as long as I wasn’t being told that he could do it but I couldn’t.

    The problem isn’t that we’re all human and thus fallible. The problem is judging others by a standard that is not applied by Battuello to himself.

  171. kathleen and leigh, it’s being a family business is a weak excuse at best. That’s like arguing in favor of slavery because your ancestors owned other people prior to the civil war. If Pat came from that background in 1860 instead of pizza biz in modern times, he could be deploring slavery while owning slaves instead of setting them free and it’d be just a fine excuse I’m sure? There were certainly plenty like that.

    Leigh, your analogy about the inherited diamond brooch fails because a) it’s just there, you’re not promoting the wearing of diamonds unless you sell it for money or display it on your person thus advertising wearing diamonds (you hit a spot with me because I could win the lotto tomorrow and I’d not buy a diamond for this reason) and b) you aren’t doing anything to further diamond mining.

    Pat, is actively promoting the eating of meat by selling it and advertising it. He is also furthering the killing of animals by doing his part to further the meat market.

    Rob, I know you’re not advocating boycotting Little Anthony’s. I was expressing how I feel about it. I’ve bought many a delicious meat and cheese filled pizza there and I just feel used by this creep for having done so. I also fear extremists like him would love to outlaw meat — something I’d actively oppose politically — and feel my money was taken from me under false pretenses and has been used in part to actively go against my own interests since PB brags that he uses his ill-gotten meat gains to fight meat-eating. I’m sickened that I was taken advantage of this way for simply enjoying the a-hole’s pizza. Well, now I know better and will not be aiding and abetting the enemy. Yes, he is the enemy.

  172. J. Eric, excellent points! I have always hated the same thing.

    It’s bad enough when they show them over and over again but what really pisses me off is when they display graphic images on protest signs to parade on the street where they can easily be spotted by small children, that is just dispicable and abusive of the children! This really set me on edge against PB. He not only did that but bragged about little kids staring at his signs in horror. That’s just effed up! Who the hell brags about abusing little kids in this manner? To me, that says it all about what kind of a human being he is — and I use the term human being loosely. Yet he has the gall to imply he’s a better human being than Joe because Joe hunts.

    And note to health news reporters everywhere: Please, I do not need to see video footage of operations, etc. If I had the stomache for that (I don’t!), I’d be a freaking doctors. Doctors need to know that much detail. I don’t.

    And, no, I haven’t watched any of Pat’s sick videos — nor do I intend to.

  173. Daniel Webster

    Mr. Madeo:

    Another fine mess you have created here. What is this the reincarnation of the infamous Luna post? But I see that you are withstanding the slings and arrows of yet another band of minions.

    What’s wrong with demanding conformity and obedience on one’s blog?

  174. Hellomolly, I know I’d said I’d shut up, but I really, really think it’s important to vegans and non-vegans alike to have a civil dialogue here on the TU. Like I said in another blog, while I will never be a non-meat eater unless compelled medically to, I think it’s important that people understand where their food comes from; vegans and vegetarians tend to understand that better that other people. I just absolutely think PB was the wrong person for the blog; he came off as inflammatory, and considering the business he owns and the responses he made to comments, in addition to censoring comments to the extreme, did nothing to foster that conversation in a manner that is beneficial to BOTH sides of the argument.

    That being said, I would like to apologize to you because I lost my cool the other day. I don’t hate anyone- well, except maybe for the guy who comes up with the annoying ditties- and I really, really should not have gone after you the way I did. I hope you’ll accept my apologies, and that we can just agree to have our differences.

  175. Wow,a lot of anger directed to a guy who tries to educate others about animal abuse. He never attempted to hide details about his family’s business, did he?

    Rob-Patrick should have posted your comments. He’s not the only one who censors the comments. The politicians here are the worst offends except for Mike Conner. I’ll agree with you on that point, and I agree somewhat about the hypocrisy. But many of the attacks by your readers are unnecessary.

    Joseph Cea- Do you believe circus animals are treated well? You really believe that??

    • I never expected (or wanted, honestly) that level of interest in this post. What I was looking for was a conversation about what I felt was a legitimate question. When things start getting mean, I really lose my appetite for this blog stuff.

  176. Can you please tell me why you or Mr. Huber did not end this blog when you saw the ugly road it was taking? I am all for free speech but this was a personal attack on someone and seemed extremely hurtful.

  177. Wow, take a few days off from being on the computer and all hell broke loose. I don’t even know if my post will be read because even I couldn’t read all of these posts but I’ll give it a shot anyway. I wouldn’t consider myself a regular on PB’s blog but I’ve made my fair share of comments. One of my main problems with Pat’s blog was the way he dismissed what I thought were valid points (and I’m not talking about deleting posts, he never deleted any of mine) I’m talking about not giving the posts and other viewpoints credit for being a valid. Many of his comments plainly state that he doesn’t believe meat-eaters can be thoughtful, compassionate people. Even in his Deflection post he writes “They freely condemn me for selling pepperoni. . . but continue to dine on the flesh of sentient beings, all while passing themselves off as thoughtful people.” The thing that caught my attention originally wasn’t that he was an animal rights activist, it was when I read that he considered ALL people who go to rodeos at a minimum ignorant and at worst sadistic, not the best way to “educate” but it definitely inspired dialog. Pat never really had a good word for those with different viewpoints and I feel that was his biggest downfall. I agreed with a lot of what Pat said regarding pets but his viewpoint on meat-eaters were just too extreme. And by the way according to a vegan I know personally and work with, Pat is not a vegan. He may not eat any animal products or wear animal products but according to my friend being vegan means a completely cruelty-free lifestyle and occupation is included in that. So, Pat may follow a vegan diet, but as long as he profits from the sale of animal products he is not living a true vegan lifestyle, and those words came from the mouth of an ethical vegan.

  178. Andrea: Good question. Maybe I need to consider what role I have in controlling the speech of people participating in the comment section.

    At what point would you have shut things down? Which comment would have been the trigger point. I’m sincerely curious.

    I’m worried that if it were purely up to me, I might start just deleting comments that I don’t like, especially those that don’t support my position or are critical of me. As I stated, I’m not pleased with the direction the comments took — particularly not the intramural squabbling — but I’m reluctant to edit them.

  179. Rob, Things did get out of hand, and I am not blameless. Perhaps, my thin skin prompted me to act from emotion instead of reason. I understand that when you stake an admittedly extreme position, you should either minimize vulnerabilities (and owning a restaurant is a rather large one) or offer a convincing defense. Obviously, I haven’t convinced some readers. That’s fine. Even though I do not feel that I am being hypocritical (I wish your readers could observe a Friday or Saturday night and fully appreciate the vegan activism at Little Anthony’s), the question remains valid. Also, there has been an unattractive arrogance in some of my articles (“the Eskimos should move” comes to mind). Lessons learned I suppose.

    Anyway, I do wish I had answered your initial comment and explained myself better. At the very least, I recognize that until the day I no longer sell meat, I will be open to understandable criticism. I sincerely invite you in for a vegan pizza sometime.


  180. Momto1:
    Thank you for your question and the answer is I think some circuses treat their animals like crap while others are very good. We saw a circus at UAlbany a few years back and it was terrible. The acts were terrible, the performers were terrible. There were not many animals as I recall and the ones that were there looked “tired” and I have no problem believing that their is abuse – I therefore would not pay and support that circus ever again.

    I don’t necessarily believe Ringling Bros. either but I do believe they are probably the most professional circus out there and so if there is any abuse I don’t think its tolerated for very long.

    I’ll also tell you that I don’t believe ONE DAM THING that comes from PETA and the ASPCA so in comparison Ringling Bros. would get my vote relative to credibility. The problem as I see it is that animal rights activists continually and incorrectly label ANY USE as ABUSE and so in accordance with their manner of thinking an elephant that is treated like gold is being abused simply because they are part of a circus.

    Question: if abuse of circus animals is so rampant then why did the ASPCA have to pay it’s star witness $190k? That’s way above and beyond compensation for expert testimony – that’s called a payoff! Did you know PETA paid someone in Texas to get a job at a snake farm for the express purpose of CREATING abuse to substantiate a claim?

    For me 99% of it boils down to credibility. I’m not going to believe anything that comes out of the mouth of a known hypocrite and/or known hypocrite organizations. I am more likely to believe an independent veterinarian making routine or even surprise physicals for circus animals. If abuse is discovered I think heavy fines are necessary and justified, training for employees found abusing or just outright fire them etc…

    I don’t believe in banning too many things. Bans represent 1 dimensional, simplistic and probably the most ineffective solution ever devised. From TU blogs to state and federal legislation bans are often found unconstitutional (1st amendment violations) in addition to regulating how people can/should live their lives which NOBODY likes.

    To conclude Momto1 – no I’m not naive and stupid but I am objective and in many cases idealistic and as such REQUIRE credible evidence i.e. not Ringling Bros. or PETA/ASPCA and certainly not some sniveling little jerk with a camera sneaking behind the scenes. Before I condemn someone or some organization you have to convince me beyond a reasonable doubt. Understand that through my nuisance wildlife business I am required to euthanize animals almost daily and I do so humanely in accordance with state law and AVMA guidelines. Its a part of my job that I take very seriously and I don’t appreciate animal rights folks calling me cold-hearted, no compassion, dense, ignorant etc.. for doing my job in accordance with those guidelines.

    Hey sorry for the rant but I wanted to be clear – I’ll be writing an article on animal euthanasia soon for Tracking Wildlife so stay tuned – same bat time same bat channel.

  181. Pat: I’ll take you up on that vegan pizza.

    I hope everyone takes notice of what you wrote; after everything that’s gone on in here during the last week, coming back with a comment like that says a lot about your character. Thank you.

  182. If it gets deep enough, you can just snip the thread. TC did it once- no more comments on X post after Y time. Not perfect, but it works in most instances.
    Just shutting down beats editing by deletion. That prohibits readers from being able to follow the flow of a discussion, which os one of the more informative elements in a blog, not a load of cherry-picked sycophancy. I take issue with the T-U’s willingness to allow bloggers to play THAT game!
    This whole thing turned bizarre with the ancillary threads that sprung up on other blogs. I have no quibble with the outcome, but would have preferred to see it come about as the result of PB actually realizing that he was not the right person to articulate the views of our animal rights friends, at least not if the animal-righters are truly interested in sharing information and engaging in civil and potentially persuasive discourse.

  183. ….Thanks to PB for that last comment. It was powerful.

  184. Erin, thanks for posting that. I truly appreciate it. And I apologize as well for the nasty things I said. Sometimes when an Internet wall is between you and another human being, its just far too easy to let ‘er rip and behave in a way I’m sure the vast majority of us wouldn’t behave if we were having a conversation over coffee face to face.

  185. Rob,

    I think you will like the pizza and enjoy the company! And Pat, what a great surprise to see your comment. I noticed when I clicked on your name it took me to the Albany Animal Rights site. It’s true–you can’t keep a good man down! I hope to see you soon!

  186. Hellomolly, thanks, I’m really glad you saw that. And I know all too well what you mean about the internet wall. If I ever run into you- I owe you a cup of coffee and a non-critical ear!

    Also, to Pat- I’m jumping on the kudos bus for the last comment. We all learn at some point that you get more flies with honey- but my own comments also exemplify how easy it is to forget that sometime. I truly do wish you good luck in your endeavors.

  187. Well, this has certainly been an interesting read. For those of you out there who believe my brother Joe is cold and heartless when it comes to animals you would be wrong. Now I love to eat meat, I think Veganism is ridiculous, but to each his own. However, unlike my father and brother I do not hunt or fish (it’s really cold and dark and I don’t want to go) so I come from a different point of view. That being said my brother often runs his ideas by me just because he knows that I will usually give him a contrary argument just to keep him honest. However, his stated views on wildlife conservation including harvesting of game animals is a fairly well documented scientific view. If we do not do our (natural order) part then the whole chain will collapse. Joe can be pretty outspoken but it’s rare for me to find him attacking someone for the sake of attacking, but I will say this, if you say something about his kids(which has been done)He will not let you hear the end of, and if it were to continue I would certainly join in as well. As for my pizza, I order the meatlovers and I don’t give a flying fig about the anchovies and their death chants.

  188. Iiiiinteresting… or not. -yawn-

    Glad this thread seems to finally have simmered down.

  189. Frank,
    What is your purpose for writing this? I think you Cea boys like to stir up trouble and do not know when to drop things and let it be. It sounds like you are truly a class act.

  190. Mr. Madeo: did you find it interesting that this so far seems to have been the ONLY one of your blog postings that stirred some sort of interesting discussion? with close to 200 postings?

  191. Monica: Yes, very interesting. I expected the usual handful of responses. I’ll let people draw their own conclusions.

    As for it being the “ONLY” thing that stirred interesting discussion, I think we’ve had some interesting discussions here, albeit smaller ones.

    At the risk of sounding defensive, do you think that means that it’s the only interesting post I’ve written?

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